that's one of the kind of statements that the obama administration has made repeatedly that they can make these clean kind of divides, and that's just not true. >> what was really interesting today i thought, the james clapper released three previously classified documents about the government's vault collection programs. that to me, jeffrey toobin, says they are moving to a more transparent world and the only reason is because of edward snowden and glenn greenwald. >> it is true that there has been public discussion of this and that's a good thing and look, my hats off to glen for investigative reporting. i still think edward snowden is a criminal and should not have done what he did, but i do think the -- this discussion. >> we wouldn't be having -- we wouldn't be having this discussion if its isn't for him. >> that's true. >> why do you think -- that's the thing i don't understand about the climate in washington these days. is that people want to have debates on television and elsewhere, but then you want to throw the people that start the debates in jail. >> tell me this, james,